ActionCoach’s The Business Spotlight with John Lavery
Today we shine the light on Restaurateur John Lavery. John is the owner of Fish City Belfast, a seafood spot well known in Belfast for its extra tasty fish 'n chips and the UK's Fish and Chip Restaurant of the Year for 2023.
John shared his experience with Richard Craythorne around running Fish City, emphasising the importance of maintaining tight controls on finances and learning from business mistakes.
#business #entrepreneur #advice #podcast #podcasts #businessowner
Transcription
[Rich:] Hello and welcome to our latest Business Spotlight interview. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by John Lavery, the owner of Fish City, along with a host of other awards and accolades across the years. This year, 2023, Fish City was winner of the UK's Fish and Chip Restaurant of the Year at the National Fish and Chip Awards in London. Fantastic achievement, John, as the UK's best fish and chip restaurant right here in Belfast City, Northern Ireland. And it's yours, John, So delighted that you could join us. How are you today?
[John:] I'm good, Richard! It's a bright and sunny morning here in Belfast, so that always raises one’s spirits. So no, all good, all good.
[Rich:] Well, why don't you share a little with us about who you are, what you do, and how long you've been doing it for?
[John:] Um, well, we're a fish and chip and a seafood restaurant. So historically or traditionally, those two entities would have stayed separately, so our innovation was to bring them together. Whenever we first looked at the fish and chip industry or business, we looked around and we saw that a lot of people that were in the fish and chip industry, as an add on, they perhaps sold pizza or kebabs or whatever. We thought, well, if we are supposed to be the experts in fish, to add more fish dishes or fish offerings to our menu was the way for us to go. So that was that was our initial thinking. And so it seems to have proved successful.
[Rich:] Excellent. And how long have you been going for?
[John:] We're now, in Belfast, we are now in our seventh year. We were based out in the country for about two and a half years in Ballynahinch. But from a brand point of view, we we knew we always had to come to the city. And so here we are.
[Rich:] Excellent. And we're delighted you are. So who's your ideal customer?
[John:] Well, whenever again, going back— Fish City was born out of the last recession. So at that time we we were we looked at the industry and we saw that not very much changed in perhaps the 40 years previous. And in our research… I wouldn't have for example, I wouldn't have asked my dear wife on a Saturday night, ‘Look, let's go down to the local chippy as our evening out.’ So we thought there was perhaps a gap in the market. And we looked at again in our research when we spoke to people that we knew or people out and about, we asked them how often that they may have had fish and chips. And generally their first response would have been that they weren't really fish and people. However, when we probed further and asked, ‘So in the last twelve months and you were out in a restaurant and that restaurant happened to have fish and chips on the menu, how often would you have had it?’ And that gave a whole different answer. So we felt that, ‘Why why was that?’ And perhaps it was maybe partly to do with the environment, partly to do with the quality and the perception of fish and chips being unhealthy or simply a takeaway food. So that’s where it began. But everyone is our customer. Everyone is our customer. In Belfast, we break it down into what we call the local market, there's the office worker, and there's the tourist, there's a broad sort of breakdown of where our customer base is.
[Rich:] Very good. So what has been your biggest learning since you have been a business owner?
[John:] Not to make the same mistakes twice would be. Everybody in business makes mistakes. Everybody in business. And we would be the same that you have a path or you have a thought process of where you want to get to and how you want to get there. And that changes - you adapt to circumstances and the environment, etc. But yeah, look, I'm not in my 20s or 30s, so I've made loads of mistakes. Hopefully I've learnt through making those - no doubt I’ll make a few more - but that's been a definite life learning curve. I've also, because I've been in business since my 20s, I've learnt to have very tight controls on the financials of the business and to be very aware and to monitor those at all times. In the early days, if I had a bad month I didn't really want to look at things, but that's perhaps when you should be looking at them most closely. And I think it's a constant analysis of your business. You had mentioned there earlier about us winning the UK Restaurant of the Year for fish and chips - that was a goal that we wanted to achieve now for a few years. But awards are… if you enter awards, you really you really analyse your business and where you're at. And that's a good byproduct, and for the most prestigious awards, you really have to dig deep and look at all areas. The Fish and Chip Awards - they audit everything, they look at paperwork, your controls, your quality of food, etc. etc. So really good for us that we had to go into all aspects of it. That identifies your weaknesses and your strengths and makes you work that bit harder to to shore up those weak areas, if you like.
[Rich:} Yeah, and I guess one of the strengths as well that I saw was this Environment and Sustainability Award that you received the same year.
[John:] Yeah, we've received a number of awards for our work that we've done here at Fish City for sustainability and the environment, and that's very important to us. It's it's part of our core ideals here at Fish City: sustainability, quality of our food, health, and the education of those principles. But look, Northern Ireland - we may not be directly affected as in other places around the world. We're not seeing the the huge rising in temperatures, floods, natural disasters… but we are indirectly affected. And businesses around the world are becoming more and more concerned, from their own ethical point of view and as a brand, about the environment and how people look upon those companies if they're, you know, good companies that people want to associate themselves with, as individuals. And we believe, and we're a small business, we're city centre-based, so that means that, you know, there's not everything that we can do. But if enough people, like ourselves, do small things, then collectively that's a big thing. And it’s very important to us. We do a lot of work that probably the public would be unaware of. And we don't necessarily advertise the fact we do it, but I’m very proud to be recognised for our work in that area.
[Rich:] Superb. And again, congratulations on both of those achievements. Excellent! So, John, you mentioned earlier about being in business since you were about 20, but say when you were very young growing up, is this something that you always wanted to do, be in business for yourself?
[John:] Yeah. My father was a self-employed businessman. So I grew up in that environment that was always the case. And I always felt that that was what I was going to do in life. Did I have a passion or desire to be in hospitality? The answer to that is no. One of the businesses that my father was involved in was the pub business. From say an age of 10 or 11, I would have been working in it. Weekends and Saturdays when my friends were off doing X, Y and Z, I was working. It was a country country bar, and when people came in, they didn't know when to go home. So, for those reasons, and maybe because I was threw in too young, I really didn't want to be doing anything in hospitality, but yet here I find myself. And yeah, I’m in it and for the most part very much enjoying it!
[Rich:] Good! That's what it's all about- the enjoyment of it. So what what have you learned about yourself during this journey?
[John:] I suppose I've learnt that, you know, that… sometimes people are very, very fortunate in that, you know, they begin a journey in business and, you know, nearly everything turns to gold, or they reach a point whereby they have enough resources etc. that the odd mistake or the off venture isn't going to be a huge impact. And well done to them. Unfortunately, I can't say that. I've had my ups and downs and business failures, etc. And it's getting back on that horse and, you know, going again. Some of these things can be very traumatic and very difficult. It can knock a lot of confidence and belief and pride, if you like. But it’s the ability not to give up. Sometimes it's easier to keep a thing going than it is to shut the door on it. Although the door may eventually close anyway, but there's perhaps a decision that should have been made much, much earlier as to whether or not it's somewhere where a person should be. That was a learning curve, but there’s lots of learning curves.
[Rich:] Yeah, I agree. And really good sharing for the rest of the community that watch the Spotlight interview series. I've often heard it said that it's important to, like, feel early, feel often, and feel forward.
[John:] Well, yeah. As I said earlier, everybody makes mistakes. There is no one out there that that can say that they haven't made a mistake. But it is learning from those and trying not to make the same mistakes again. But being in business, it’s no easy task.
[Rich:] And especially with hospitality, coming through the pandemic, Covid, as if any industry anywhere that has had, you know, the stuffing knocked out of them, as it were, it's been the hospitality industry. Is that the biggest issue you've had to overcome- the pandemic, or is there something else?
[John:] The pandemic certainly was a major issue. I have said often, city centres have and do have their own unique issues and problems. Covid has changed the landscape out there. Trends and things that you could have looked back on and made assumptions… that's not the case today. Perfect example is a Friday. With the offices not yet returned, Fridays are different beast to what it was. If you like, Thursdays are the new Friday. So we've had to adapt, and although Friday evenings seem to be busier than ever they were, so that makes up for some of the lost lunchtime trade. But moving on, we thought Covid was very difficult, and it was! But we got through it. So that once you go through something, it becomes a bit of a blur, you’re out the other side and you're fairly well, you know, you've get going again.
The whole cost of living crisis has been, as we've been, also very difficult for hospitality. And although it has eased now, at the beginning, the cost increases that we had, the speed of which, was phenomenal. We just couldn't stay ahead of the thing. In fact, we closed for two days because… I had all our teams and both front of house and back of house just sit and cost out our menus and our ingredients. It just was moving so fast. We ended up, we employed a girl just to monitor on a daily, weekly basis the price increases that were coming at us. So that was, has been difficult to stay ahead of the trend, the upward curve. Energy, you know, we took what information we had at the time, and we got into contract. We didn't know that, you know, the last winter wasn't going to be as severe as it might have been. Prices eased, but unfortunately we're in contract and we're paying a substantial cost of that gas and electric. That impacts the business.
Staffing. Staffing has been an issue for a number of years now. I personally, I think that it's a good thing that we've seen change in hospitality. Hospitality for decades now has operated on a, you know, salaried people might have been doing 60 or 70 hours and more. Although they were paid well, they were punching in huge hours to get those salaries. So that is something that people no longer wish to do. And as a businessperson, I don't want them doing it either! Somebody doing 60 or 70 hours, they're no good to me. They're on automatic pilot. And as a consequence they're not being as productive as they could be for the business. So we have a policy here in Fish City whereby none of our staff work more than 48 hours. But that means that we have to employ more people to cover those hours, and that's an additional cost of which the public really aren't aware of. But that's an additional cost on top of all the, you know, ingredient costs and energy costs, etc. etc.
In order to attract good people and for them to look at hospitality as being a career, I believe that it very much needed to change, and I hope that we are one of the leaders in bringing that change about. I just hope that taxation and the market or the local market isn't impacted so much for the cost of living that all that good work is lost, that businesses just can't afford to be viable or to operate incurring… labour is the largest, the biggest overhead in hospitality, and the market that we are in, substituting it with technology, and, you know, I don't believe that it's really what people want. People want to come out and experience being looked after. The food is, of course, a big part of it all. But it's a total experience, so we're fairly labour intensive. But, we're still here.
[Rich:] Good, good, and hopefully continue to be so for a very long time! So in terms of that, when things can be, I guess, pressing in on you like that, there's so many different obstacles, so many hurdles to get over, like you say, the pandemic crisis, cost of living crisis, energy crisis…do you have any sort of favourite books, podcasts to go to for inspiration, motivation, or who inspires you today in business?
[John:] Loads of people inspire me. You see the guy that's just starting off and is a one-man show? Those people inspire me. The people who run national international businesses inspire me. It's their journey. I recall a certain individual who would own one of the major companies in Ireland telling me the story of…he had two sons, one was a banker in London, the other an accountant. And the banker in London wrote to Warren Buffett every week for a year asking if they could meet. And at the end of the year, they got a letter in return to say that he would meet with them. Now they meet once a month. Every month. Imagine being in that club! So, you know, there was a guy who the company would be worth north of 2 billion that, you know, they took the time to write every week and persevered and didn't take no for a response. He kept going. So stories like that inspire me. And I suppose my own life and and experiences of, you know, being knocked on the floor and being able to come back. And knowing that that I can do that gives great strength.
[Rich:] Great! And it's also inspirational to so many others that are coming up behind us.
[John:] I hope so. I hope so.
[Rich:] So in terms of that, what would you say to anyone who is thinking of going into business for themselves now?
[John:] Look, I suppose the worst possible thing could be that somebody has an idea, somebody wants to do something, and at some point, many years down the road that, whether it's lying in a hospital bed or sitting at home, going ‘I wish I had have done that.’ You know, it's too late. It’s better to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all. It's no easy journey. I have started a number of businesses from start-up and certainly recall that when we looked at the Belfast operation, I remember standing outside the building and turning around to my wife and saying, ‘If we do this, you do realise that we'll be giving up three years of our life. I mean, giving it up! It was more than three years. But I fully realised the commitment that it was going to take… everything, there was nothing else, hobbies, holidays, everything fell by the wayside. But I knew that's what needed to be done. Not easy, but, you know, if you can turn something into a success, the joy in that itself is immeasurable. But, look, every day is a challenge. There's no moment where you go, ‘Oh, right well, I’ve done it! I’ve made it!’ Tomorrow’s going to come back and bite you.
[Rich:] So speaking of tomorrow, what does the future look like for Fish City and indeed yourself?
[John:] Well, look, we have great aspirations for the brand. We’ve been building that brand for a number of years. And certainly, at this moment in time, we hold seven national UK titles amongst many other local awards, etc. So when we go up against the best that's out there in the UK and we can come away as winners, that says something about the business. But again, awards are great for the team, they're great for us, it's a huge pat in the back, it's team building, all of that, but more importantly, it benchmarks us against what else is about. So from a brand point of view, we aspire that, you know, we would be able to open more Fish Cities. We see three avenues of which that expansion may take place. So that's what we aspire to do. And, you know, a Fish City in London or any city in both Ireland or UK doesn't necessarily frighten us. As I said, you know, when we can go up against the best that's out there and be successful, then why not?
[Rich:] Exactly. Fantastic! Well, let me wish you every success going forward, and I believe that those aspirations will be achieved. If we could wind the clock right way back to you being an 18-year-old, what's the best advice that you would give to an 18-year-old John, and therefore, for some of our younger viewers?
[John:] The best advice? Look, it's the best advice is, you know, to think big. Think as big as you possibly can. You might never achieve anywhere near that, but, you know, don't be so narrow minded in your thoughts. Be aware of the carrot. Sometimes, and for example, at the moment, potentially there are other businesses that we could maybe pick up a good value. However, is it the right time, or is it the right thing to do? And so just because something's there, you have to analyse, is it the right time? Is it the best thing for the business moving forward? Although it could be a cheap acquisition or anything… is it the right time? That’s really important. Because you're doing something just because it’s there or easy could potentially bring the house of cards down. And single mindedness just because, you know, you have a vision. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. You know, a goal… and it brings me back to something that I said earlier, that sometimes walking away from something or closing, shutting the door is a harder thing than than it is to keep going. So things change over the years and what might have seemed a very good business or a very good idea ten years ago may not be that today. And the goals that you had ten years ago should be altered, changed. So that, I think, constant analysis of where you are at your business and where that sits in the marketplace.
[Rich:] Excellent advice, John! Great, great sharings. It’s been a wonderful time having you on the series, and I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy days to do that. I really appreciate all the great shares and advice that you've shared with us today, and I wish you every success going forward!
[John:] Thank you very much, Richard.