Inside Belfast Podcast: John Lavery
#005 John Lavery - Fish City • Nov 15, 2021
In episode #005 your host, Simon Thompson, interviews John Lavery – the owner of Fish City in Belfast. Fish City is a lively, award-winning fish, chip and seafood restaurant in Belfast's city centre. Listen as John talks us through his entrepreneurial journey, his commitment to being as honest as he can (even if it gets him in trouble), the influence of his parents in building his work ethic and persistence and much more.
About the host - Simon is a Director and financial planner with Catalyst Financial Planning. Catalyst is a financial planning-led, wealth management firm with specific expertise in advising business owners and established professionals and leaders.
Transcription
[Inside Belfast Podcast Narrator:] Welcome to The Inside Belfast Podcast, a series of interviews designed to inform, educate and inspire business, community and thought leaders by exploring the stories of some of Northern Ireland's leading lights. It is our hope that in these interviews you will find the wisdom and encouragement you need to keep pushing on. This podcast is brought to you and sponsored by Catalyst Financial Planning and Glandore. And without further delay, let me introduce you to your host, Simon Thompson.
[Simon:] Welcome to this episode of the Inside Belfast Podcast. Today I am delighted to have John Lavery with us. John is the owner of Fish City in Belfast City Centre. Fish City is a lively, award winning fish chip and seafood restaurant, a family owned business that began in 2013, winning the Seafish Regional Fish and Chip Shop of the Year Award in 2015 and in 2018 were voted the UK's Healthiest and Most Sustainable Fish Chip at Seafood Restaurant by Seafish. At Fish City, John and his team are committed to sourcing sustainable seafood. John, it's a privilege to have you on the podcast today. How are you doing?
[John:] I'm doing grand, Simon, and thank you for having me. I hope I don't disappoint today.
[Simon:] I am absolutely convinced that you will not and we really appreciate you being here. John, the first question for you then, so for any listener who doesn't know who you are, tell us a little bit more about you and what you do, please.
[John:] Well, I'm originally, I originally was in the meat business, and I suppose that I’d be classified as a master butcher. I spent some 24 or 25 years at that. Probably should have got out of it sooner than I did. I was involved in property, did very well at that for for a period of time, but like many others, got caught up on the whole crash of 2007, which nearly destroyed us, to be honest. From that, I suppose necessity brought us to being in the restaurant or the business that we are in today. So that's a quick synopsis of my journey.
[Simon:] And I'm sure that transition was quite difficult, John, from property to the restaurant business. Or did your years as master butcher and being in and around kind of a lot of people who were running restaurants and doing all of that, did that make that easier for you or what did that transition look like for you?
[John:] In the meat business, we were involved in supplying we wholesaled, so we supplied restaurants, contract caters, some schools. Not just on one occasion, I was asked if I would like to get involved in opening a restaurant, and I always avoided it like the plague. I thought they worked too long hours. And my father was in the pub business of which I was thrown in at the ripe age of, I think, 10 or 11, maybe even, so I despised that business. Just I think I was too young when I was thrown into it. However, when the crash came, like many others, we first thought that this was a temporary thing, this will rectify itself in 6-7 months. Of course it didn't. And we didn't plan for retirement. We still had outgoings and commitments, et cetera, which were increasingly becoming more and more difficult to meet. And what little we did have left was disappearing fast. So maybe it wouldn't have been until maybe 2009 that we really seriously said, we must, we have to do something here, otherwise there's going to be nothing left. So at that point, the criteria for us was that it had to be recession-proof as possible. It had to be cash over-the-counter because the banks weren't, the doors were open and the windows were. Signs were saying, come in and we'll give you plenty of money. But the reality was that that wasn't the case. And thirdly, that something that might have legs that had growth potential. So there were a number of things that we looked at. Really I suppose when we went out looking for sites, it would have been dependent on site-specific of which one of those that we decided to follow through on. At one stage in the early days, it looked like we had two things that were going to happen. Thank goodness one fell through, because it took all of our energy and all of our resources to get the one up and running. You'll have to refresh me on what your initial question was as I think I've begun to ramble.
[Simon:] No, you were answering that perfectly, John. Just exactly what that transition would have looked like for you from kind of property into restaurant business and that background, really.
[John:] I think that every business runs more or less the same. The operational side of every business can be different. I had many years of experience on operating a business as I've been self employed since maybe early 20s. So what I didn't know, obviously, was the operational side of things. So I went off and I worked in a fish and chip shop for free for about six months just to learn the operational nuances and side of things. And today we have come a long way. There would be nothing that we would do that I could recognise back from those days, but that's what I did. And so I had maybe not very much of an idea, but I had some idea when we opened the doors.
[Simon:] I'm sure that fish and chip shop loved you working for free for six months.
[John:] Well, it's not everybody that would take you in, so I have say I’m very thankful and grateful that they did that.
[Simon:] Yeah, perfect. And John, the next question then for us is tell us something interesting about you that not many people might know.
[John:] Well, apart from what I've just described, I've worn a number of hats through my life.
[Simon:] There's probably a wide range to draw from you're just not thinking about it because I was Googling for a long time to try and find out about you, but everything was just linked to the restaurant, and John and I picked up just a few comments on that before the recording started, but…it probably seems like what possibly might that be? But you're a hard man to dig into whenever you do the searching online.
[John:] I don't think that I've had an exceptional life or done anything distinctive. I'm very proud of where we've taken Fish City and we have achieved a lot and some of the ethos there. But you know something about me that might be interesting that nobody knows… well, I won All Ireland medal at long jump once.
[Simon:] That's definitely interesting. That's definitely interesting. What age were you then, John?
[John:] Fifteen or sixteen. Fifteen.
[Simon:] And you're what, 28 yet now, is that right?
[John:] I am, yeah. Long time though.
[Simon:] John, one thing that you believe to be true that many people might disagree with…
[John:] I'm a great believer in honesty. Honesty can certainly get you into trouble at times, but I think with a lie, you’re always found out in a lie. I live a life that I try to be as honest as I possibly can. I can be vague if the situation requires, but I don't believe that a lie gets anybody anywhere.
[Simon:] Yeah, I think for anybody that hasn't connected with you on LinkedIn, John, I think people will see that just in some of your content, not in a negative way, but just you have a very forthright way of saying what you want to say. There's no real smoke and mirrors with you, I suppose, is what I'm then kind of saying. You say what you want to say, and say what you mean.
[John:] I suppose something interesting that people don't generally people don't know about me is that I'm slightly dyslexic. And as a consequence of that, I didn't realize that until quite late on. But I wasn't comfortable in maybe putting pen to paper, or as a consequence, then maybe throwing out an opinion. But look, I'm in the 61st year. I'm not particularly interested in trying to… if someone has a strong belief on something or that I want to change their mind, but if I can make them think about something or if I have an opinion, well, that's my opinion. You don't have to agree with me, but that's how I feel or think about a particular situation, and I'm not afraid to voice that.
[Simon:] And is that different to whenever you were younger?
[John:] Probably was. Of course, you're a lot less confident in yourself. You've less experience to draw on, lots of reasons why you might want to keep your head down.
[Simon:] Yeah, that makes sense. John, who are three people who have had a significant influence on you, and why?
[John:] That's a question, I think, that throughout one's life that you have different people that have influence for different reasons and at set times. I often quote it from a business point of view that I remember back inthe meat days, and I would have been a client at that stage and I would have gone on a number of courses both with them and then later with the University of Ulster, et cetera. But I remember being asked a question, and at that time, the wholesale part of the business was growing, and I was working for endless hours. And a guy asked me, he said, ‘Well, John, how many more hours in the week do you think that you'll be able to do?’ And I thought long and hard about that, answering that question. I said, ‘Well, maybe ten or twelve.’ And I was, I don't even know if I could have done that. But his response then to me was, ‘Well, John, that's as big as your business is going to grow.’ And that was a eureka moment because like many small businesses our people are trying to get something up and running in its infancy, it's necessary to punch in those sort of hours. It's well documented: people talk about the life-work balance, et cetera, et cetera. Sometimes that's just not possible. And when you're in that situation and you're growing it from scratch, it's very difficult to let go of responsibilities and to delegate to other people work in areas that you have had total control over. But the guy was right. The other adage, ‘You can't see the wood for the trees.’ You have to take a step back. By taking a step back, in order to do that, you've got to maybe employ one or more people. The bottom line gets hit initially, but the business needs driven forward. You need to look at the past and form a plan, and if you're involved so much in one part of it that you don't have time or the foresight to do that.
My father was a great influence from the point of view that his upbringing, his father died when he was quite young. Things weren't that easy for him, but he was very successful in his own right and owned a number of businesses, and so both he and my mother probably taught me the work ethic and not to give up.
[Simon:] Yeah, and I think that kind of persistence and resilience message is a really important one today, isn't it, John? And sometimes you kind of need to be reminded from whatever source that you can find, that you now, yes, work hard, but also whenever you feel like you're getting beaten from every side, just keep on pushing through where you can.
[John:] In the meat business. I went through BSE food and Life. Huge crisis in themselves and fundamentally changed. We had done expansion because we felt that there was potential in the ROI export market, so that was devastating for us at that stage. Property market was another massive crisis and blow. What have I learnt? I've learnt that there's always the other side. There's always the other side, and the journey might not be pleasant, it might not be a journey that you want to be on, but you have always come through the other side. And what I've also learnt is that if you believe in something and you want something and I'm talking about, you know, when we moved to Belfast, what we needed to raise and stuff, to be able to do that, I just kept going. And I would have said to my wife, Grainne, as I would have said said, ‘Look, until somebody shuts the door or says, no, I'm just going to keep banging away at this.’ And that has stood me in great stead because it’s many, many times you feel like this isn’t going to be possible. You make it possible.
[Simon:] Yeah. No, that's very true. And obviously now, John, you have just had to deal with, and are still contending with some of the aftermath of COVID so definitely there's been a few obstacles in the various guises and hats that you've worn that you've had to overcome.
[John:] Yeah, absolutely. 2020 for us, we were expecting and everything was saying to us that it was going to be a fantastic year. The opposite turned out to be true. We looked at all the information that government and the health people were handing out, and we tried to mitigate and do things in order for us to stay open, but it was a broad brush and all of hospitality was closed…whether you were providing a safe or safer environment than others. I think there are definitely aspects of how that whole thing was handled where it was completely wrong, but we are where we are, and we invested heavily in the outside areas. We did an extension inside because of the social distancing, et cetera, but to our avail, we were closed anyway. However, on the positive side of things, that what we did wasn't wasted. It's done now. It's out of the road, paid for. The extension, for example, was always something that that was ahead of us, and to find the funds to be able to do it, so it's done now. So onwards and upwards.
[Simon:] Onwards and upwards. Do you have a mantra or code that you live by, John? And if you do, what is it?
[John:] In all the business or areas that I've been involved in, I've always had goals. There's the overall goal, and then there's the planning: your five-year, two-year, one-year plans. But I'm excited. Fish City as a brand and the potential that Fish City has, that's what really excites me. We are the holder of four UK National Awards at this point, and we've been shortlisted for many others. So, look, the awards are fantastic, and it's a great, it's a pat on the back for us, it's a pat on the back for the team and the staff. But one of the reasons why we do that is that it benchmarks us against every other business or every other restaurant out there in the UK. So if we can come away with, as I said, four UK national titles, we know that the business is good enough to stand head and toe against anybody else out there. So it's financing that expansion will be the next big hurdle, I suppose. But no, that’s what excites me.
[Simon:] And I suppose that ties into that sense of continual improvement and persistence and just kind of pushing on that you have those goals ahead of you and you're just going to keep banging the door until you get to where you want to get to.
[John:] I often ask people that come in for interviews, whether chefs or front of house or just anybody, I ask the question, ‘Look, are you a 100% person? Are you an 80% person?’ A 100% person will rarely achieve 100%, but they'll always be in the high 90s. An 80% person will be lucky to make the 50% most of the time. One of those people that whatever I do, I really want to do it 100%. Sometimes I wish that that wasn't the case because I would be content with a lot less, but that's the way I am. It drives me, and it gets me over a lot of hurdles as well. We all have bad days, especially at the moment, you go home and something new has beat you up. But tomorrow is another day. I get up in the morning and, ‘Right, so how do I turn yesterday around? How do I make that work for me or make that an advantage? What seemed like a disadvantage or something dire the day before? How do I make it work the other way?’ That's how I view things.
[Simon:] Yeah, that's perfect, John. Thank you. When did you know that you wanted to take a more entrepreneurial path? And was there anything specific that stood out as a driving force in that decision to pursue that path?
[John:] I've always known that that was the path I was going to take. Even from ten elevent years of age, I never thought about a choice of anything else. I just assumed that's what I would be doing. And probably that comes from a bit, you know, my father was always self-employed, and my mother came from a family of farmers, so there was that work ethic about the home. And I always envisioned myself running my own business. I regret maybe whenever I finished university, well not quite finished, but my father was ill and I was asked if I would come home to take over the family business. At that time, and there was a bit of pressure applied to that and I was told that if I didn't do that, they were going to sell it. So I said that, ‘Well, I'm going to finish what I'm doing here, so if you can't wait for that, then sell it.’ But I would have quite liked, I think it would have been good for me to maybe have been out in industry for a while, because some of the mistakes that I made, because it's a learning experience and learning curve, you make mistakes, and mistakes cost money, but some of those mistakes may not have happened had I had some experience in industry. But maybe had that happened, then maybe life would have taken a different turn and maybe I wouldn't be one of the self-employed today. Who knows?
[Simon:] Maybe now you'd be saying that one of your mistakes was getting a job in industry. You never know the power of hindsight. John, what's the biggest challenge that you're facing right now?
[John:] Well, there are a number of challenges, not only for ourselves, but just hospitality in general. Obviously, COVID we have been closed for quite some time. There's been a huge drain on finances, and we have we are now we're looking at currrently…well, we don't have any furlough staff at the moment…but the furlough is ending this week, but the VAT is increasing by 7.5 percent. The bounce-back loans for which a lot of people took loans, including ourselves, are all looking at having to be repaid. The rising costs of supplies, and that hasn't stopped. Plus the shortage of people and how salaries have gone through the roof in some particular areas, especially in the kitchen. And even at that it, offering huge salaries…it's difficult to get, to find people. So those are all challenges that we're currently facing. But I'm also looking at, down the road, that next year that we all hope to see. That an improvement in the situation, that, for example, the travel is a lot easier, we see some tourism back into Belfast. But if staffing was a problem this year, I think that it's going to be a much greater issue next. Because if tourism does come back even a little, there'll be even more demand for people. And will we be able to find them? So I'd like to see our government come up with some solutions. I know that the haulage and some other sectors, that there's an attempt to solve, whether it be temporary, some of those issues. We're going to have to do the same. So the other issue for hospitality is that, as I said, it's being squeezed at both ends at the moment, it's in the supply and obviously on staffing. So it wasn't a sector that there were huge profits in before COVID. Now the VAT has buffered some of that, but that buffer is disappearing, and certainly the cost of doing business is far greater than it was in 2019, so I certainly see that the cost of eating out is going to increase. That's not just on high end sector or anything, I think it's going to increase right across the board, right through to your breakfast, bar, coffee, everywhere. There isn't room to absorb any more of these costs. Our concern then is, will the public support that or will, in fact, the public be able to afford to eat out in the way that they had previously? For some, that won't be the case. And does that mean that there's going to be less restaurants? It all remains to be seen. Yeah, some big decisions to be taken by hospitality over the next number of months.
[Simon:] Yeah, I suppose then for those of us, John, who aren't in hospitality, I guess it's just trying to have a bit of understanding about those pressures and still supporting where we can and where we have means to, but also just acknowledging that your industry is under significant strain and pressure. And if we want the retain of vibrant hospitality industry, I suppose for those of us who aren't in it, it's just accepting those realities and understanding that they're very real pressures and dangers for you.
[John:] Look, I've been very passionate about what we do in Northern Ireland does as a whole, in hospitality and obviously our producers, et cetera. There's people that have been over, they've been over with Tourism NI or Food NI or just over on fact-finding missions have often commented on the quality and the overall standard of our food offering here in Northern Ireland, and they've gone home, ‘Why can we not be like them?’ Northern Ireland has more independence than anywhere else in the UK. We don't have the chains that other places have in the UK. But will that change? Will we be forced into where we have no choice because of labour and cost that we're buying more product in? Will the chains, the English chains or Scottish, Welsh chains, will they see opportunity here in Northern Ireland and that they can come in because of centralized operations which are cooking food and farming it out, and the guys are more or less reheating and putting it together? So there can be significant cost differences when you're running that type of an operation. I just hate to see our standards drop or some of those fantastic restauranteurs and restaurants disappear because they just can't make it work anymore. And I have tried to bring together people to discuss these and sort of try and see a way forward and work together for the good of us all. Even from a producer point of view: restaurants- we're the ones that are showcasing their goods. Yes, several years ago, before we had the benefit of tourism, the only way that they could showcase their gear, their products and goods was to go off to do exhibitions and shows, et cetera at whatever companies. These people are now coming to us, and they're coming to the restaurants to sample the local fare and the local food. We are the showcase for that that's being produced in Northern Ireland. So if somebody from China or any part of the world to go home to their own country and they see something sitting on a supermarket shelf, you know, ‘That’s Northern Ireland, I recall being in such and such, the food was fantastic, et cetera.’ So I don't think that we're being recognised enough for that sort of thing, never mind the employment that we are creating here in Northern Ireland. I think I looked at figures 70,000 people that hospitality employees responsible for 2 billion in sales or money coming in. So yeah, well, it won't be my fault if that doesn’t work out.
[Simon:] I definitely agree with that, John. I know that you're rallying people together from some of the content you're putting out on LinkedIn, just highlighting the realities of the challenge that the Hospitality is facing. So for those of us who aren't in it, definitely appreciate suppose just that context, to understand what is going on. So as prices rise and the pressures maybe show a little bit that we can have a little bit of understanding as what's behind that and to kind of get behind you.
[John:] For some reason, it's not everybody, but for some reason people feel that we should go out or going out to eat somewhere should be cheap and very much resent any increase. And I suppose if you like to talk about the fish and chip element for a moment, there's lots of people that expect us to be at a price level of the local chippy around the corner. We're city-centre based. We're paying the rent, not paying rates at the moment, but we will be. So our overheads and costs are huge. Whenever I look at our bad reviews, 80% of the bad reviews are because somebody has said that we're too expensive or paid too much. Just on- a few people have said, well, ‘Do you find that the public are less forgiving because of COVID, staff and et cetera?’ The truth of the matter is that I think the public are more demanding at this point in time. They’re more demanding than they were pre-COVID. But that's the business we are in. We don't go out there and go, ‘You know what? Poor us. We're only going to give 70% of our service. We're only going to do, go at 70% of what's possible.’ What we try to do, and all the team, is to give 100%, because anything less than 100% is just not acceptable. Sometimes we fail, we don't manage that. And especially this year, quite a lot of people have been in hospitality for a number of years, have completely decided to get out of it. So you're bringing in young talent, young people who don't have the experience, but that's quite often not out of choice. That's all that there is. And you're trying to train those people up to a standard whereby it's acceptable to you. Sometimes it's not always possible, but it is difficult. But we hope we're doing better than most.
[Simon:] Yeah, I think that's a reality, John. Not just in hospitality know, some people just aren't cut out for it, but those people that are, it takes time to get people to where you want them to be. And it's, you know, acknowledging that in all industries and in all professions that there there's a learning curve, that learning curve takes time and results take. So thanks for that, John. What is one lesson that you think is really important for a new entrepreneur or leader to know and why?
[John:] I think that anyone who considers going out on their own or starting up their own business with the view that life's going to be easier or sweeter, if they're going to succeed, that isn't the case. I'll give an example from when we began the restaurant business or the business that we're in initially. We started that off in a place called Ballynahinch, but we knew that from a brand point of view that you had to be in the city, and we were quite successful, as you mentioned in the intro there. Within two years of operating we had won the regional National Fish and Chip Award, which nobody so young had been able to achieve that before. We were doing something right. But that meant nothing when we came to the city because nobody knew or nobody cared, as far as they were concerned we're some operation out in the country. But I know that prior to going ahead with this operation in Belfast that I had to make a decision that I had to ask myself did I want to give up three years of my life as in that's what I believed, that that’s what I was going to have to input and devoteevery possible waking hour to that business. And believe me, I thought about that and but I felt that Fish City and the brand and what we were trying to achieve, it was just to walk away from that, it was impossible. And it would have broke my heart to have seen someone else at some point maybe pick up on the idea and run with it themselves and achieved what I know that can be achieved here. The reality is that it was more than three years, so it was seven days a week. I hadn't had a holiday for nine years, right up until I went skiing. I have a passion for skiing, and I went just prior to the whole COVID thing in 2020 there, I was away in February, just before it all went poor. So yeah, that's the sort of commitment that I've put into this business, but because I truly believe and see the potential.
[Simon:] Yeah, no, 100 percent. I remember whenever we started Catalyst back in 2019, obviously I'd been self-employed for quite some time, kind of doing the job of financial planning for clients. But it's very different moving from just doing one side of the work to running a business that does all of the work. And that level of commitment. And just to have a realistic expectation that both the graft and the results will just take time. The graft will be there for longer than you might want, and the results might not come just as quickly as you want. But as you've said a couple of times in this interview, John, just whenever you believe in what you're doing or believe in what you can achieve, it's just keep on knocking and keep on working until you get there.
[John:] Yes, absolutely. And within that, don't get me wrong- that might have sounded a wee bit like drudgery, what I have sacrificed and what I have given up, et cetera. Look, there's been tons of high points along the way of that. There's been very joyous times. And, you know, look, I'm smiling! That came on and my head’s running through 40-50 whatever things, all those great moments. So it's hasn't, it's not all, you know, ‘Poor me.’ There's been great fun in it. There's been great hardship. There's been many moments when you go, ‘What am I doing this for?’ I see an end goal and hopefully get around to see that happen.
[Simon:] Brilliant, John. Just one final question, then. Obviously, there's been, even just in that most recent, that last question, it's very easy whenever the head is down, to kind of lose sight of other things. And there's a season for everything. And there's all of those kind of competing thoughts that somebody would have in their mind whenever they're trying to decide on what to do, how to do it, what life should look like. But if you could give just one piece of advice to any leader or entrepreneur to help them live a more meaningful story, what would that be?
[John:] If you believe… but there needs to be some evidence there that what you got is something that is special or something that has huge potential. The meat game, for example, at the end, I really didn't enjoy that business. I did at one time, but there was no reward. I probably should have got out of it a lot sooner than I did. So sometimes the more difficult decision is, ‘I'm going to walk away from this.’ That can be a harder call than muddling through until somebody forces you to walk away, and then it's, you know, that from mental state, financial state, the ability to get up and go again could be gone. That's a fine line in that you don't want to give up too soon. But knowing when that horse’s husband flowed to death and there's little hope of resurrection, that's an important lesson.
[Simon:] Yeah. I think sometimes you try and avoid asking yourself the hard questions, don't you? And you just keep on pushing in the hope, and it's blind hope, that things will turn or life will be better sometimes.
[John:] I think it's more fundamental than that. I think that nobody wants to fail, nobody wants to turn around and say, ‘I failed at that.’ Everybody fails. Warren Buffett, the big players, there's many a venture that they have got involved in that hasn't worked. It's just that they have the wherewithal and the successful ones overshadow all of that. There's very successful businesspeople out there that get involved in X, Y and Z and fail all the time. There's no shame to that. The question you have to ask yourself is that, come the end of your working life and stuff, ‘Did I do what all I could have done? And do I regret not doing something more?’ Those are all questions that are ahead of us all, including me.
[Simon:] That's perfect, John. I think in the course of this interview, there's quite a bit for people to think about. I know there's a couple of things for me just to take away look at. So we just want to thank you again, John, for being willing and for being honest and just sharing your time with us today and giving us some of your own insights and thoughts. So thank you very much, John, really appreciate it.
[John:] Not at all, Simon. Thank you very much for having me and hopefully I haven't bored too many people today.
[Simon:] Definitely not. And I can attest that the fish and chips from Fish City are definitely worth the visit, so I can definitely attest to that. Thanks again for joining us, John. Thank you.
[John:] Thank you.
[Inside Belfast Podcast Narrator:] Thank you for listening to this episode of the Inside Belfast Podcast. We hope you have been encouraged by today's guest. If you would like more content to support you in your own journey, please sign up to our mailing list at www.inside-belfast.co.uk. Here you will find more episodes and resources to inform, educate and inspire you as you live out your own story. We want to thank our sponsors at Catalyst Financial Planning and Glandore for their continued support. And please don't forget to subscribe wherever you consume your podcasts. Until next time.